Just Another Blog in the Wheel

Is Mary truly dead? Indeed, is any forgiven Christian truly dead? Heaven is beyond time, as are those within its realm. In heaven the elders of the Church present the prayers of the faithful at the altar of God as incense, pleasing to Him; can we not, then, ask those elders in heaven to present our petitions at the heavenly altar for us, that they may be pleasing unto Him? Can not I beseech these saints, resurrected and, thus, beyond time, to petition for me from their place at His feet?

Moderator’s Note: Shall we dance? There seems to be an equivocation here that needs a two-step remedy! First: Is Mary truly dead? The answer of course is Yes and No. Only Jesus has been truly raised from the dead and we have little reason to doubt that Mary shared in this ‘first death’.*

However, the Apostle Paul seems to suggest that dying ‘is gain’ since it will result in being with Christ and we certainly are not given any information which presumes to impeach Mary from that hope of the forgiven Christian: Therefore, she certainly lives.

Now, this post nowhere suggests that dying results in the complete inactivity of the dead. It does however, refrain from attributing actions to them which are not clearly indicated in the Scriptures. Paul seems to more than suggest to the Philippians (in Chapter 1:21ff) in his conflicted confession at verse 23 that, “I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.” It is not a deep mystery why Paul believes he can be of greater help to the Philippians in the body IF upon departing to be with Christ he is NOT able to be of greater help to them. If, as this above commentor suggests, to die is to be beyond time (and here is the unmentioned stretch) and to be ‘beyond time’ includes omniscience, allowing all who are ‘beyond time’ to hear everyone on earth simultaneously: then what is the payoff for Paul to stick around? Even if he could still hear one Philippian at a time, could not Paul’s uninhibited intercession prove more effective in heaven? Yet HE finds it NECESSARY that he remain in the body for their good. Why?

Would Paul be among those 24 with their golden bowls of incense?

This is an instance of interpreting Revelation 5 to bolster a presupposed practice. If we look at the broader context of the book, Revelation appears to be showing us what Heaven looks like on the Lord’s Day. The Apostle John was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day and was given a special vision of the goings on in Heaven. Particularly, these ‘prayers of the saints’ do not appear to be prayers directed to the 24 Elders, but directed to “Him Who Sits on the Throne and unto the Lamb,” whose nostrils are pleased with the aroma. Whether or not God likes to have Elders gather up prayers for Him in bowls remains a mystery to me, but what seems evident is that these prayers are: 1- Directed to God. 2- Are not directed to the Elders. 3- Nor are they ‘intercessions of the Elders on behalf of the Saints”.

*(One may make a better biblical case here with Enoch or Elijah who were quite apparently spared death and bodily assumed into the heavens, rather than Miriam of whom we have no biblical record save an incredible feat of eisegesis in Revelation 12. Contrary to the biblical accounts of Enoch and Elijah, the late traditions found in reference to St. Juvenal at the Council of Chalcedon, etc. seem to clearly reference her death (even in the presence of the Apostles) in order to reinforce the mystery of her assumption given the empty tomb at Jerusalem (though nearly equal tradition holds that her assumption was from Ephesus). Reformed folks like us here at Messiah’s do not place a lot of faith in the ‘mystery feast by fiat of 1950′.)

Royal:
Please read more carefully. He said “If we look at the broader context of the book, Revelation appears to be showing us what Heaven looks like on the LORD’s Day.” Not LAST day.

May 16th, 2009 at 2:54 pm